Logo text [This story contains major spoilers from The Wheel of Time season three, episode five, Telaranrhiod.]

There are many things showrunner Rafe Judkins wants you to know and love about his sprawling TV epic The Wheel of Time. That includes its LGBTQ+ inclusion.

Now three seasons in, the show has made a conscious choice to not only lean into that visibility, but also continue to centrally explore this aspect of the late author Robert Jordans high fantasy series. For Judkins, its not only an exciting privilege, but a driving force behind his approach to adapting the 14-plus book series. The way Judkins has translated Jordans story into this onscreen universe for Prime Video has sometimes made that representation nearly imperceptible. Unlike much of mainstream TVs treatment of LGBTQ+ characters and relationships, the existence of such in The Wheel of Time universe isnt getting special episodes. There are no coming-out storylines, no declarations of evolving identity upon finding love and there is no homophobia.

We made a conscious decision in the first season writers room to make sure homophobia didnt exist in The Wheel of Time. I think a lot of our audience wont notice it, but some of the audience does notice and feel it that it is fantasy, says Judkins. We go to worlds different from our own, and people think about the world and the people in it differently than our own. We dont need homophobia to exist. It doesnt really in the books. Very rarely does anyone ever make any negative commentary about any queer relationship in the books.

Queerness whether in personal identity, relationships, cultural customs or power structures is an unquestioned, innate part of this fantasy world. That allows The Wheel of Time to side step having to justify the existence of queer people, and instead focus on how they live, breathe and survive within the series universe.

That doesnt mean Judkins and the Wheel of Time writers have ever hid their intentions in the adaptation, just the opposite. They are dedicated to exploring Jordans textual and subtextual visions, as is evidenced in the fallout following the death of one member of an Aes Sedai and Warder throuple during the season premiere; one prophetic vision experienced by Moiraine in last weeks episode; and now, a deeper representation and presence of the first-sisters of the Aiel community.

In a conversation tied to episode five, THR spoke with Judkins about the inspirations and process for building The Wheel of Times queer universe across three seasons, and what some recent character moves mean for their journeys and representation.

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Lets start with a high-level question: as an artist and a consumer, how do you feel like the fantasy and high fantasy genres have historically handled queer representation, both in terms of where it has been most interesting to you and where it has fallen short?

My dad would read to my brother and me from Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit as we were kids going down for bed, which sometimes was disturbing. I had nightmares about Gollum. I loved it, but there was this gap in it for me in some ways until I read Wheel of Time, which is actually what I read with my mom. She gave it to me. I and she grew up in the Mormon church, and she was kind of a feminist figure within the church, trying to find ways to fight against it. I was coming to terms with the fact that I was gay at the same time. So as we were both reading these books, we saw ourselves in them. That was different for me than what Id seen before in fantasy.

I loved being able to go away to a world that I didnt know anything about and that I could escape from, but I never met or saw myself in those worlds until I read Wheel of Time. A lot of it also this is the 90s and early 2000s was very coded. Its always, women are pillow friends. Theyre not lesbians. But its all there. When youre reading it, it felt like big billboard signs of: These are queer stories; these are queer characters, especially in comparison to all the other fantasy Id been reading. For me, it was very important to find that in the show today. I feel like part of our job as artists who are adapting something is to bring it to life, not just word-for-word but to also bring its context to life. And the context of Wheel of Time in the 90s is very different from the context of reading the books today. I wanted to infuse that into the show and hopefully let people who werent seeing themselves in other fantasy shows see themselves in Wheel of Time.

I have also found myself frustrated. I have dear friends who work on Game of Thrones, and I love the show, but I often found queer representation very othered all the time. One thing weve tried to do in Wheel of Time is consciously not make our queer representation feel othered. Like when we have a polyamorous relationship, and we have these two women in Moiraine (Rosamund Pike) and Siuan (Sophie Okonedo) who are deeply in love and have to hide their relationship, theyre not hiding their relationship because theyre gay. Thats something that weve tried to infuse into the world of the show and is something that comes from the books. Robert Jordan once famously just said casually, I would say 30 to to 50 percent of people in the world of The Wheel of Time are probably not straight. Thats a huge thing that he was doing. Were trying to infuse that in the show and not make it feel like the exception to a rule, but make them feel like a natural and central part of our world.

Speaking to that percentage comment, a lot of times when discussing LGBTQ+ representation in TV and film, things can be focused on who represents specific audiences. Whats interesting in Wheel of Time is youve got these societies that believe certain things and operate in certain ways as a result. In adapting this into a show, what were the touchpoints in the books you leaned into the groups of people, the belief systems that felt queer and that you wanted to live in the show?

I come from a science and anthropology background, and a lot of what I studied was the history of homosexuality around the world and in different cultures. One thing that I think the Wheel of Time books did incredibly well was culture creation. Theyre very fully formed cultures when you walk into them in the books. They feel real, and they are all attached to the rules of their world in different ways. Women have power, so how each culture within the Wheel of Time world attaches to the idea that women have more physical power available to them than men is interesting. They all do it very, very differently. Similarly for me, queer representation is very different in the different worlds of The Wheel of Time.

In the White Tower, we have this place that is almost exclusively a female domain, and there are a lot of conversations about the different kinds of relationships that women have within it. One thing that I was very interested in was the idea of these pillow friends or, quite obviously, loving relationships that happen within the tower amongst women. That was one thing I wanted to lean into with the show because often with single-gender places, you see a lot of homosocial and homosexual behavior. That idea of this place where only women live was very interesting to me. Then in season three, theres this world that we go into. One of the most fully formed cultures in the books is the Aiel, and in the books, they always had this very fascinating idea, which was called First-Sisters. Two women sort of marry each other first and they may have relationships outside of that with men, they may not, but that core relationship in their life was with their first-sister. You see we have three first-sister relationships in season three, and theyre all different from each other.

We have two main characters Aviendha (Ayoola Smart) and Elayne (Ceara Coveney) who eventually become first-sisters in the books. Justine Gilmer, whos an amazing writer, was a big part of pulling it up. How we pulled it up was to forefront that relationship and the loving nature underneath it early in the show, so when they eventually become first-sisters, its based on this relationship they already have with each other. I love that. I like having a multiplicity of queer relationships and a multiplicity of how different cultures approach queerness in the world of the Wheel of Time. We have five billion characters and it feels like theres never time to do anything. But I do feel like seeing three different first-sister couples and how they operate with each other this season is an interesting insight into this world.

Sophie Okonedo (Siuan Sanche). Prime Video At the center of the show is the relationship between Moiraine and Siuan, which gets a notable development in episode five. They were described as pillow friends in the books, but you pulled that out and are very direct about their romance across each season. How do you feel that decision their relationship not being in subtext helped you shape the adaptation overall?

It felt essential that their relationship be textual. It is one of the most important relationships in the books for how it drives plot. Its almost like the inciting incident of the show is contained within the relationship between these two. To me, the show didnt make sense without that relationship being explicit because we are also putting more of the emphasis certainly on [Rosamund Pikes] character, Moiraine, than there is in the books. Youre also always looking as an artist for, Why am I telling this story? I have to devote my life to this for years and years. It was worth devoting my life to telling this beautiful story, but also that the lead was a queer character. Ive never seen a fantasy show where our lead was just casually a queer character that wasnt only directed at the queer community. To have that was an important part of why I wanted to tell this story and why I fell in love with the books in the first place.

In episode five, Moiraine and Siuan have a conversation expressing that they have reached a point in their shared journey where it is no longer possible to be together in this life. In fantasy, life could mean many things. Are they on separate paths personally and romantically now, or is there still something for them in the show?

Moiraine is this extremely rigid, controlling and quite regimented character in a lot of ways, and this season, one of the things she has to relinquish is control. Thats with her relationship with Rand, thats her relationship with her existence in a way of knowing that she may not be here for the long haul anymore. We talked about it in the writers room as basically, Moiraine received her terminal diagnosis in Rhuidean, and now she is dealing with the outflow of that. I think whats beautiful about the conversation in episode five that j [Ibironke] and Justine worked on is that its this character who wants to say, You did something to me that I cant forgive, and at the same time, shes realizing, Fuck, I still love you. I dont actually have control over these emotions inside of me.

We talked a lot about how to end that scene and, does it end with the kiss or does it not end with the kiss? We talked to Sophie and Rosamund because theyre heavily invested in these characters. We all came to the conclusion that as much as Moiraine would want to say, What you did in season two, almost using this beautiful marriage we had on the Oath Rod to control me, should be a hard line in the sand. But this Moiraine that is now having to accept that she cant control the whole world around her, she at the end just cant control even her own emotions, and says, I love you, and she kisses her. Its all the things she thought she wasnt going to do.

In last weeks episode, we see Moiraine enter the rings of Rhuidean. As a result, audiences glimpse all those potential future outcomes. We see Moiraine with the dragon, Rand (Josha Stradowski) and then Lanfear (Natasha OKeeffe). It wasnt shocking, but I dont know if I had thought about Moiraine with a man within the shows universe until this moment. Was that you taking a chance to say that the labels we think about and apply to our world might not apply in this world?

Thats exactly what it was. Its interesting because early on in the show, Rosamund came to me, and she was like, I wanted to know if you believe that Moiraine is a lesbian or that she is bisexual. I was like, What I believe for the show is that those identities dont exist in the exact same way in our world, and Moiraine doesnt believe that one of those identities has to sit upon her and she has to choose it. Rosamund really responded positively to [that] and put that into her creation of the character. We do a lot in the show with this idea. In the same way that homophobia doesnt exist in the world of the Wheel of Time, I do find that often in our world, we fight the hardest for our identities and the definition of who we are when we feel like were fighting against something.

I was a gay Mormon kid, and you have to fight so hard to find yourself in that gay identity because of the pressure that is coming at you. But if you dont have that homophobia coming at you, do you need to define yourself so specifically and cleanly and with such a force behind it? Thats very interesting to me, just from where Ive come from and what Ive studied in the past. We wanted to incorporate that in the show. You even see theres this relationship between Alanna, Maksim and Ihvon, her two Warders, which we think of as a queer relationship between the three of them, and we still think of it as a queer relationship between just Alanna and Maksim.

We talked about it a lot, the three of us while working on the show, because its quite an interesting thing to see a queer relationship between a man and a woman. We dont get to see that a lot. It makes their relationship very interesting to all of us, and what we wanted to find in that was different. All over the show, we are trying to have those moments. Its not the number one thing on the page that were going for, but I think you feel it infused in the show. We are puncturing and questioning those identities, and because this is a fantasy world, are those identities exactly the same here or not? That moment with Rand was one moment we wanted to do that.

Alanna (Priyanka Bose) and Maksim (Taylor Napier) Prime Video Earlier this season you killed Ivhon (Anthony Kaye), the character Alanna (Priyanka Bose) and Maksim (Taylor Napier) say theyre most attached to. Now you have this relationship where two people are navigating one of the hardest parts of being partnered the death of said partner without the person theyd probably prefer to go through the ordeal with. Can you talk about that decision and how you wanted to explore queerness through this development?

One of the things were setting up with Alanna is a huge event that happens with her later in the books. I dont want to spoil too much for people, but it sits in this area. The books dont really open that up for Alanna too much before she gets to this massive moment where she basically turns the entire story of The Wheel of Time on its head. We wanted to build that and set that up. We were all also interested in the writers room about being able to see a polyamorous relationship on the show and talk about it in a more real way. She says in episode three, When one person loses the other, you own that grief, but who owns the grief when three become two? That was our central idea with the Alanna-Maksim relationship. Theyre in this three-person relationship where both of them are in love with the man they lost.

So they have now lost the person that was most important to them and theyre left behind. Is there still something there for these two who have loved each other in part just because they loved the third person the most? That was to most of us in the room not only a relationship that we hadnt seen in fantasy but also a relationship we hadnt seen on TV that much before. We have a couple of people in the room who have been in poly relationships at different times, so we had a lot of conversations about that and said, Whats interesting about this to us? What do we want to write about here? Its a small story through the season, but I think again, for people who maybe havent been able to find themselves in fantasy stuff before, they might find a relationship that feels more like theirs with the three of them.

Elayne (Ceara Coveney) and Aviendha (Ayoola Smart). Prime Video You touched on the first-sisters and this women-led Wheel of Time universe earlier, but you lay some key groundwork for another throuple Rand, Elayne and Aviendha in episode five by bringing audiences fully into this Aiel cultural practice. Can you talk more about this, specifically Elayne and Aviendha building their bond first before building it with Rand? Rand is not at the center of this right now and that might feel like a shift from what they remember in the book.

Rands relationship is ultimately with Elayne and Aviendha. Its a very serious relationship that they have. But its crazy sometimes, the things people remember about the books. They dont remember that there were Black people in the books, even though its literally described in the text. And people dont remember that Elayne and Aviendha spend about 10 to 20 times more page count with the two of them together than either of them ever does with Rand. Their relationship is the central relationship in that three-person relationship in the books. They get married and Aviendha talks about how she holds Elayne in her arms at night and when she doesnt have her there, its like a piece of her is missing. If youre a queer kid reading that in the 90s, you know whats happening. A lot of people who were not queer kids, read it and didnt realize that thats whats happening. But I think that we are just taking what was in the pages of the book and putting it on screen.

I want to ask about the Aes Sedai and Warder bond because its been one of the most interesting dynamics in the series for me. Partnered romance between men and women is often heralded in media as the pinnacle of relationships, but in queer culture, you can find reframings of that through friendships and frequently chosen familial bonds. Any kind of loving relationship can reach this unencumbered level of vulnerability that results in the same or stronger feelings of loyalty or care when people of different genders remove certain underpinnings of attraction-based coupling. But do you see this bond overall as having a queer reading to it?

I do because I think that there is something about it that is this absolute vulnerability that you have with this other person. Especially for a character like Moiraine, who in some ways is more unguarded with Lan (Daniel Henney) than she is with Siuan, the love of her life. Theres such beauty in that relationship. To me, one thing that I found really powerful about it, especially with Moiraine and Lan is, we dont often get to see beautiful platonic friendships between men and women. So to people, it feels queer because it doesnt feel like a part of our world that a woman and a man could have such a deep and special friendship with one another.

Rosamund would say it herself. Its one of her favorite things about being in the show, the ability to have this relationship with Lan. Shes like, Ive never even been in something that came close to having a relationship like that between a man and a woman before. Its one of those things where I think fantasy and genre are interesting because you can use them in this slant world. You can use it to puncture ideas about how we interact with our world. I think the fact that this relationship feels so unusual should make us think because it shouldnt be that unusual that a woman and a man have such a deep and caring relationship with each other that has absolutely nothing to do with sex.

For us, from the beginning theres this idea of the Aes Sedai-Warder bond and the different ways you can peel it apart and see it through different people. And were not done with it yet as long as the show gets to continue. The Aes Sedai-Warder bond I think is one of the most interesting fantasy devices in The Wheel of Time world that we can use to tell interesting stories about our world and how we live in it.

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The Wheel of Time streams new episodes Thursdays on Prime Video.