[This article contains spoilers for the finale of the third season of HBOsThe White Lotus. In fact, thats basically all this article is. Spoilers. For the third season finale ofThe White Lotus. Be advised.]

DANIEL FIENBERG:Look, Angie. We talked for a couple thousand words about the incest storyline fromThe White Lotusthis season, so lets say we mostly avoid that here. Been there and, like the Ratliff brothers, done that.

The problem with my giving an overall reaction to theWhite Lotusfinale relates to what I do and do not watch the show for. I watch for the privileged insularity, the self-defeating narcissism, the soul-sucking affluence and the gorgeous photography of vacations Ill probably never get to go on, because Mike White doesnt do my vacation bookings and you know he knows a thing or two about travel booking, because Mike White has been on multiple seasons ofThe Amazing Race. I watch for Whites cutting dialogue and the magnificent actors who tear into that dialogue with the reckless abandon of the Ratliff brothers on a party drug. I dont watch for the murder mystery that bookends each season, nor do I watch for hints about the murder mystery or easter eggs about the murder mystery. Most of my favorite vacations havent had closure, either narrative resolutions or happy endings (like an evening with the Ratliff brothers).

So Sunday nights finale, which was 87 minutes of SLOW MOTION teases, misdirections and repeated foreshadowing related to the shooting from the premiere, was not designed for me. It wasnt completely humorless, because I rewatched Fabian squeal and throw himself in a pond as many times as I watched that scene fromGleein which Artie threw himself into the pool for a musical number. But it was very padded and very heavy, with every beat accompanied by overbearing choral score and cutaway shots to both monkeys and monks alike.

At some point in the finale, when it looked like possibly half the cast was going to be killed off, I was prepared to accuse Mike White of confusing his reliable and excellent cynicism with less intriguing nihilism. But then at least half of those deaths turned out to be misdirects, including one character whom we watched die for five lugubrious minutes before that was revealed as a fake-out.

This is a very long-winded way to say that I didnt dislike the finale in fact, much of it works better for me the more I think about it but it was a lot of the part of the show that I enjoy very little.

How was theWhite Lotusfinale for you, Angie? And did you enjoy how the seasons mystery and its ongoing arcs played out?

ANGIE HAN: I laughed when the finale opened with voiceover from the monk, explaining over a montage of our main ensemble that, It is easier to be patient once we finally accept there is no resolution. Yes, the show says, we know this seasons been slow. But hey, you also have an unsatisfying ending to look forward to!

I kid. Kinda? Im with you on caring more about the biting themes, bravura performances and beautiful scenery than I do who dies. But circle back to that question we must, since (at least so far) thats just how the series is structured. And while I didnt hate the finale, what I was left thinking about, once all the gun smoke had cleared, was whether this might not have been the cruelest ending yet.

Our victims are Rick, who kind of had it coming or at least had to know this was going to be a possibility when he set out on this single-minded quest for revenge; Jim, who unwittingly set this entire plot in motion when he abandoned his boy decades ago and Chelsea, perhaps the purest heart weve ever seen on this show, whose only crime was standing by her man.

In fact, this finale seemed especially rough on the nicer characters. R.I.P. to Gaitoks soul he gets the job and the girl, but at the cost of the gentleness that made him such a lovely human and such a terrible security guard. There go Pornchais spa dreams, dashed against the rocks by Belinda as surely as hers were squashed by Tanya in season one.

True, Lochlan, the sweetest or in any case the least obnoxious Ratliff, survives. But Tims whole thwarted murder-suicide plan seems legions more fucked-up than anything weve ever seen on this show. (Side note: This hotel might consider moving that poison tree out of arms reach of its family suites. Seems like a legal liability!)

The White Lotus universe has never been a just one; Zions declaration that good things happen to good people is just proof he hasnt seen the first two seasons of his own show. But Im not sure its always felt so punishing. And I do wonder if its not mistaking darkness for depth. It might be one thing if Gaitok and Mook had felt like complex and idiosyncratic characters this whole time, or Rick and Chelseas bond felt more finely detailed or if the Ratliffs storyline had actually gone anywhere besides lol, jk.

As it was, I felt more emotionally detached from this season as a whole, and this ending in particular, than I have in seasons past. Even with the supersized body count. But did you also find this to be a particularly chilly ending for everyones favorite sun-dappled murder vacation show, or have I just gone soft?

DF:First, I want to say that the resort is probably OK with keeping the suicide tree around, because its fairly complicated to utilize, clearly. Like Timothy had to ask Pam for specifics about the fruit and how poisonous it might be and Pam, who apparently didnt find this suspicious at all, had to tell Timothy that its specifically the seeds that are poisonous and only if theyre ground up. And even if the seeds are ground up, this isnt one of those One sniff will kill you kinda things. The four of-age Ratliffs all had a big swig of poisoned pia colada and felt zero impact and Lochlan had a full blender of ground seeds and he just had five minutes of vomiting and premonitions of death. And dont ask me to explain the character logic through which Lochlan saw a blender full of guck guck that he knew included what his father claimed was bad coconut milk and his response was, Eh. Ill use it anyway.

Regarding the emotional detachment, Ive given this some thought and, like I said, Im liking it more the more I think about it, because this finale was almost a satire of bloated Peak TV finales that feel like they owe audiences resolutions for a dozen different characters and subplots. Every characterthis season got a resolution. Every character learned a lesson. And the lessons were ALL wrong! And the resolutions were all hollow. And thats the lesson and thats the resolution.

Timothy Ratliff learned to cling to family, but his family is awful, especially since Piper, who started the season as the moral Ratliff, learned she cant be bothered to find enlightenment if enlightenment doesnt have better organic catering. Belinda learned to cling to money, even if that meant sacrificing a genuine relationship with a decent man with porn right there in his name. Gaitok learned the importance of prayer and action, and his reward is the love of a woman who we now realize is thoroughly superficial. Laurie learned the importance of time and friendship, when her friends are awful. Frank got his one wild night of partying and returned to prayer, as if spirituality allows for cheat days. Rick and Chelsea learned the importance of love, which didnt end well.

Everybody got a variation on what they thought they wanted and everything they thought they wanted was wrong. Even Rick and Chelsea! She wanted to be with Rick for the rest of her life. Mission accomplished. He wanted revenge for the murder of his father and since he apparently never watched aStar Warsmovie, he was unable to anticipate that Darth Vader killing his father was, like, a metaphor and stuff.

What do you get for people who have everything? The illusion of satisfaction and enlightenment, a rich white tourists version of satisfaction and enlightenment, the sort of satisfaction and enlightenment you get from a hermetically sealed luxury resort that makes you think youre experiencing a foreign country and culture, when its mostly just trapping you at a breakfast buffet with a donut tree.

So if you werent emotionally moved by the finale, what shocked you or surprised you? Or frustrated you?

AH: In fairness, a good breakfast buffet can offer an awful lot of satisfaction. I was so proud of Chelsea for grabbing that donut en route to her doomed attempt to save her boyfriend from himself. If that makes me a regular Piper Ratliff, more interested in tasty meals than spiritual transcendence, so be it.

Aside from Chelsea remembering the donut, the sweetest surprise to me was the resolution of the girls trip. I dont know what I did expect from that storyline, but it wasnt a moving speech about what truly gives life meaning. (Less shocking, of course, is that Carrie Coon absolutely knocks that monologue out of the park.) These three have been low-key and then high-key at each others throats the whole week their whole lives, probably and yet theres something profound about the simple fact that theyve traveled so much of lifes journey together.

Lauries honesty might not be able to solve all their differences, but it does allow them in the moment to see what they actually mean to each other not what theyve pretended to mean to each other every time theyve strained their voices to insist that theyre having such a nice time, theyre so glad they did this, theyre not bothered by this or that at all.

I wish, though, that it had felt more directly in conversation with all the other stories happening around them. Every season of The White Lotus is built around a theme, but this years take on death and spirituality has felt to me less focused and less cohesive. Its true that the various plotlines have run along roughly parallel tracks, as everyone is forced to reconsider what truly matters to them, whether its love or money or morality or, in Saxons case, getting off. But I dont know that, say, Ricks arc felt richer for being juxtaposed against Lauries, or that the Ratliffs journey felt meaningfully in conversation with Gaitoks and Mooks.

Then theres the question of how the choice of setting ultimately played into the seasons bigger picture. As ever, it can be tough to tell whether The White Lotus is satirizing clueless wealthy tourists who struggle to view these locales outside of their own ultra-privileged lens, or if the show itself is limited in its purview.

On one hand, of course these outsiders view Thailand as an escape, a playground, an exotic land full of ancient foreign wisdom lost to Western civilizations. On the other, locals like Gaitok and Mook have no reason to feel that way, but theyre two-dimensional characters who dont offer much added perspective or insight into this place either, beyond his vague and ultimately failed commitment to Buddhist nonviolence.

I feel like Im sounding crankier about this season, and this finale, than I was. I still enjoyed it more than not! But the more I turn it over in my head, the more ambivalent I feel. Do you think the White Lotus formula has run its course, or did you find much about this season that surprised and delighted you?

DF: Lauries speech was great and I didnt buy it for a second, but I bought that Carrie Coon bought it, which is all the show seemed to require.

These characters have the memory of a goldfish not quite hedonistic in most cases (Frank, I guess, is fairly hedonistic, making his dabbling in Buddhism all the more inauthentic) but definitely existing in-the-moment.

Thats part of why Ive been perplexed by one of the common complaints I was seeing on social media after the finale namely that five people were killed in noisy, bloody fashion and the departing guests were largely untraumatized.

If you expected any of these people to leave Thailand lamenting the deaths of Scott Glenns Jim, whom most of them never met, two security guys none of them could name, and an odd renegade couple whose ability to afford this vacation in the first place is slightly baffling, Im not sure what show you were watching. As with one of the two major political parties in this country, the concept of empathy is not something theyve mastered, even the ones who probably think of themselves as liberals.

Sure, the murders happened directly in front of the three cougars. But there is no chance any of them will tell a story about this vacation in which theyre anything other than the protagonist, much less a story in which they were just cowering observers.

Saxon might have cared if Chelsea had slept with him. But probably not. It isnt completely clear what the Ratliffs perceived about the entire final day. Do they even know the shooting occurred? None of them know Timothy tried to poison them. Im skeptical any of them other than Timothy know about Lochlans brush with death. As soon as they get their technology back, the kids can return to being the See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil monkeys they were in the premiere.

Belinda would have noticed and mourned. But Belinda is rich now and $5 million goes a long way toward insulating you from tragedies in which youre not a participant.

So Characters not being traumatized by other peoples trauma is pretty much the shows brand.

I guess the last question other than whether Mike White screwed Sam Rockwell out of a guest acting Emmy win by putting him in a fourth episode is whom you might want to see again from this cast.

My answer, of course, is the monkeys. But otherwise, Lauries probably the only answer. White seems to like bringing back the one generally decent woman, for purposes of corruption.

AH: Laurie or other unspecified generally decent woman might be the answer that makes the most sense, but you know what? Forget that. Bring back Fabian. The man promised us a song. Id like to hear the rest of it.